countermand my trousers: ravefromthegrave: ileolai: »HOWEVER, they are not socialized as male,…
»HOWEVER, they are not socialized as male, and because of that, don’t have the same male privileges as…
shitty you didn’t keep reading because the sentence was “but i can also fucking tell you that i am capable of viewing women or feminine people as subhuman, but the fact that i’m able to view them as subhuman is because of internalized misogyny” which is actually what you wrote: “viewing women as subhuman is internalized misogyny”
and are you srsly telling me that most men don’t see women as subhuman? because the way that victim blaming occurs so much, that Nice Guy syndrome is so rampant, and the fact that governments think that they have a right to make decisions about women’s bodies and men aren’t out there pissed about that tells me that the majority of men don’t give a fuck when women are treated as less than human.
and please don’t spout your bullshit “since you have internalized misogyny you’re not allowed in feminist spaces” crap at me
i’m down for having a respectful, consensual conversation, but can you read what i write instead of making assumptions?
Jacq. as another person on the trans spectrum and as a feminist I do not agree with your shit here. masculinity and maleness are different things - you do not have male socialization, you have masculine privilege in social situations that allows you to move more freely through society that has nothing to do with upbringing. every single person on this planet deals with experiencing and expressing misogyny - internalized or not - because this world is saturated in it, and it shapes us all from the moment we’re born, one way or another. separating the influence of misogyny, and gender itself, is fucking crucial.
It is fucking oppressive as fuck of you or any other person to suggest that gender isn’t real. there is more to being a woman, to being female, in any shade of femininity or masculinity, whatever body you have, than just your biology vs. society. shit is complicated as hell. simplifying it actually hurts people in this community, and frankly, y’all should know better.
women’s only spaces *must* be available for transwomen, because they sure as shit are more vulnerable to violence and (trans)misogyny than most cis women are. transmasculine folks like myself, do not need access to this particular space. queer spaces, women + trans/intersex spaces, awesome, but women-only spaces should be for the female-identified, regardless of socialization and birth sex. because they need it more than us.
because this bullshit about “faab” people “having the right” to be in a space free from “maab” people is transmisogyny at it’s finest. there are some excellent posts all over tumblr dealing with the myth that transwomen and transfeminine people are a threat to anyone in lady-only spaces. goddammit.
my socialization is not male, and never will be, because I was raised female. my gender socialization is however, different from that of a feminine ciswoman or femme-identified lady-born person, because as a “tomboy”/unfeminine girl, I was treated differently than my feminine peers were. this is not male socialization. my current interactions with people when I am feeling extra masculine are not male-socialized either, because socialization is a developmental process.
this radfem shit is a fucking thorn in the side of this movement - gender is fucking real. if it isn’t for you, then do your thing without infringing upon the well-being and bloody identification of other people. this is such a stilted, near-sighted perception of the world that hinges largely on fearing men in really shitty and unproductive ways, and basing a fractured worldview and activist platform around it is actually hurting queers, women, and men.
sincerely calling bullshit,
saying gender isn’t real is not oppressive.
gender is oppressive.
if gender is oppressive then how the hell do people, esp. queers, find so much strength in it? my gender isn’t some canned socially-enforced shit - it’s something I’ve worked hard to grow and nurture IN SPITE of violent external forces seeking to shut my shit down. I spend a lot of my time with femmes whose gender could be read from the outside as aping social norms, but again, is something they’ve fought to cultivate in a shitty, femmephobic, misogynistic society, and yes it does give them strength. if the discovery of our genders is something we (as butch/femme ID’d people, though I am sure this applies to many others) have to fight to identify and come out and explain, because of how liberating that act in and of itself is, then how on fucking earth is it oppressing us?
serious case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater when you conflate viciously socially-enforced trad. gender roles with gender in and of itself.
I call your shit out for being essentialist and near-sighted. as a butch-ID’d person, I have worked my ass off to convince some of the queers around me that gender isn’t this amorphous socially-driven thing we would all do better without - but that it is the source of so much of my confidence and strength and drive to push through when everything around me is telling me that I cannot exist the way I am.
Di, you’re amazing. <3
Problems happen when, instead of treating theory as an inevitably imperfect way of making sense of the world one perceives, a framework that is constantly adapted and changed in response to new data and perspectives, one views theory first as truth and the perceived world around it as a consequence to be derived from the theory. The fundamentalist mode of thought is based on fundamentals though which all of reality is interpreted in a one-way direction. Once this train of thought is established it can’t be moved by new experience since all experience is rationalized to flow logically from the unquestionable principles.
In physics when students are taught the basic equations of classical mechanics it’s easy to note that the math is always at best a representation and not reality. Take, for example, the equations for figuring out the trajectory of an object being thrown. We have beautiful equations to work out almost precisely the trajectory and final location of the object being thrown given enough initial data. But in real life, there are always complications. As any physicist notices, the data will never perfectly match the theory because theory cannot ever take into account everything. There is no way to simulate the entire complexity of existence without using all of existence to simulate it. The most accurate map will be laid inch to inch over top of the land that it is supposed to map; in other words, useless. Abstract representation is always limited and this is the most important aspect of representative theory to recognize.
Fundamentalism steps in when the physics student says that reality must be wrong because it contradicts the beautiful theory. Though it seems absurd in relation to basic high school-level physics, this occurs everywhere there is theory. You can see fundamentalism not just in religion, but in Atheism, feminism, philosophy, every social science, marxism, etc. It’s understandable to fall in love, in a sense, with the beauty of a theory that purports to explain everything. We have this wonderful theory, it helps us understand this confusing thing so well, this must be the answer, so goes the line of thinking. The key, though, is to recognize the limitations of theory, what it can represent well and what it can’t, and where it contradicts real life.
The view gets muddled further when individual social psychology comes into play. I think most people come to embrace movements and philosophies for profoundly personal reasons. Feminism is both personal and political, we all know that. Feminist theory can lift us out of darkness and show us a different way of seeing the world, a way in which we have power, a way that makes sense of our trauma; this is understandable as I’ve been there myself. However, this also makes it all too easy to attach to the theory we love that gave us so much. This makes any challenge to the theory a personal blow.
Entwined with the personal significance of a theory is the problem of categorical rigidity. In fundamentalist thought, since theory is regarded as the baseline of reality, it is vitally important to maintain categorical rigidity in order to keep the world making sense.
In intersectional thought we’ve recognized that the world is far more complicated than simply “Men oppress women,” and we’ve expanded theory to encompass a whole range of social positions and oppressions. We also know, however, that these categories and theories are simply a representation that is used only to help make coherent sense of the messy world we’re in. Everybody has a different story and a unique lived experience and theory will never, cannot ever, encompass all of it. Intersectional theory is an imprecise, messy tool to help communicate the mere gist of what’s going on. It would be unwise to imagine that the categories we’ve identified are in fact basic reality and not simply tools to help us understand reality.
In fundamentalist thought, in contrast with the above, categories become rigid and unable to flex to accommodate the variety of reality. Since one’s personal understanding of the world in fundamentalism is not a back-and-forth process between observation and theory but rather a one-way trip from theory to reality, it becomes vital to maintain categories as absolute and unchanging. The threat of a category expanding to take on the messiness of reality is an existential threat to the person with a fundamentalist view. The idea that the categories of woman and man might be less rigid and more accommodating of the professed reality of those around us is unthinkable because it will bring the entire chain of fundamentalist feminist thought down.
The combination of a personal motivation and the existential threat of changing categories is very powerful for a fundamentalist anti-trans feminist. The danger of opening up the category of woman to trans women is very real to such a person and we need to recognize this fear when trying to deal with fundamentalist thought. Accepting trans women into woman-only spaces does not have to mean the dissolution of most feminist principles simply because a category has changed. It doesn’t radically alter our understanding of Patriarchy, but rather helps us see it clearer. Trans women have valuable experiences to contribute to the feminist movement; we’re not trying to hijack it, we’re not trying to infiltrate it, we’re trying to join it. Let us in, please?